"tapzz" (tapzz)
03/27/2015 at 10:56 • Filed to: honda, s660
5
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"tapzz" (tapzz)
03/27/2015 at 10:56 • Filed to: honda, s660 | 5
| 35 |
Commence drooling. But only if you're in Europe. Sorry.
Honda's latter day Beat is a JDM Kei car, which must be pretty unique in having a mid engine, RWD platform all of it's own. The body's made from an aluminium and steel blend, and is meant to be stiffer than an S2000.
Being a Kei, it has a 660cc turbo triple out of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! series, which means it's only supposed to have 63hp. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink. However, since it only weighs 830 kg (1900 lb), that's still plenty to have fun with. What Honda's doing now, though, is to look at making an export version with a 1 litre turbo that'll put out 127 hp. That's not far off the 129 hp of the new 1.5 litre Mazda MX5, but that thing weighs over a hundred kg more (200 lb). Should be fun.
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
In Japan, it's projected to cost less than ¥2000,000.- as compared to a current base MX5 which is ¥2700,000.- Pretty cheap, in other words.
!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! has all the details and a road test.
Photo credit: Honda
Milky
> tapzz
03/27/2015 at 11:03 |
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Of-fucking-course the U.S. won't get it. Cant a 20-something single male just by a fun cheap impractical and hipster-ish sports car?! Guess I'll go back to disliking Honda then …..
Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
> tapzz
03/27/2015 at 11:09 |
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I need to get much richer in the next couple years so I can buy this.
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tapzz
> Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
03/27/2015 at 11:14 |
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It looks remarkably cheap for what is a mid engined roadster- in the UK, it ought to be £15-17k Not that I could just whip that out of my wallet, but it is on the definitely do-able side.
Fed(oo=[][]=oo)uken
> Milky
03/27/2015 at 11:15 |
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WARNING horrific generalizations below:
I wonder if the general consensus that most 20 somethings can't afford to buy anything, let alone a car for fun, factors into automakers decisions about where models get sent. 20 somethings that have had kids just need the safest, cheapest, blandest thing they can get. 20 somethings that don't have kids probably have student loans, and don't want car payments on a toy.
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Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
> tapzz
03/27/2015 at 11:20 |
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Hopefully I can get a cared for one on the 2nd hand market one day. My current next car budget is around £3-4k at the moment, a bit off one of those haha.
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Milky
> Fed(oo=[][]=oo)uken
03/27/2015 at 11:28 |
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Don't have kids, have student loans and want a car payment on a toy ….. Responsibility is lame.
Svend
> tapzz
03/27/2015 at 11:33 |
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That's pretty great for £11,130. Nice compact sporty car.
A slightly more practical use of that money would be a Skoda Citigo Monte Carlo for £10,605.
But then again, not everyone wants/should be practical all the time.
Cé hé sin
> tapzz
03/27/2015 at 11:39 |
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!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
Fixed!
cornerslide
> tapzz
03/27/2015 at 12:22 |
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I have nothing against imports except this. I don't buy them because I can't get what I want from them. (Not talking about brands such as Porsche and Ferrari etc. Can't afford them anyway.) The last "affordable" convertible sports car we had was the Solstice. It did well. Was considered by reviewers as the Corvettes baby brother. Why the blockade when it comes to the really fun cars?
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tapzz
> Svend
03/27/2015 at 13:17 |
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I fear it'll be closer to £17k once it comes here. The autocar price is just a straight conversion from the Japanese sticker price in ¥ to £, which never, ever works because taxes and city exchange rate shenanigans. Measured to a known quantity in both markets –the MX5, which is ¥2700,000 there and £20k here– it should come out at around £15-17k
Much as a I like the VAG triplets, If I'd want something sporty but practical around £10k, I'd go for a nearly new/slightly used Suzuki Swift Sport every time
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tapzz
> Cé hé sin
03/27/2015 at 13:20 |
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Fair enough, but you have to wonder why Honda would be flying western auto journalists to Japan to test an S660, and start murmuring about 1.0 turbos if they weren't serious. Also, if I were Honda, it seems a no-brainer: more examples sold to ameliorate the cost of a unique platform, and simultaneously provide the range with the attainable halo car that the CRZ never really was.
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Svend
> tapzz
03/27/2015 at 14:10 |
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For the same money in a 1.0 and non VAG, I'd go for a Vauxhall Corsa Sting R.
For £17,000 the options increase dramatically from a real performance hot hatch to performance saloons, hatchbacks and estates.
If you looked about you can even get a brand new Mazda MX5 for £17,000.
This one is pre-registered on a '14' plate with 50 miles on the clock for £17,000.
With the new one coming out soon the old style will drop to get shot of them.
PG; the scalpel wielder
> tapzz
03/27/2015 at 22:32 |
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you know there is video too?
SO MUCH FUN!!
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tapzz
> PG; the scalpel wielder
03/28/2015 at 13:19 |
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No, I didn't- great find, thanks!
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athought123
> Fed(oo=[][]=oo)uken
03/30/2015 at 13:14 |
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Entirely untrue. They just thought 20-somethings would like this instead:
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Fed(oo=[][]=oo)uken
> athought123
03/30/2015 at 13:26 |
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I'm still 20 something and still want an Element.
thegregorius
> Fed(oo=[][]=oo)uken
03/30/2015 at 13:45 |
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Partly that, and partly that at least over here in Europe, 20-somethings often refrain from owning cars at all until they are 30-somethings with families. The few of us who do have cars tend to do the Jalop thing and buy something cheap, used and interesting rather than expensive, new and bland. I don't think that I have a single friend in my own age (I'm 29) who owns a new car, or who even considers it.
BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
> tapzz
03/30/2015 at 14:23 |
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A unique chassis... yes, technically.
However, it isn't as if a transverse FWD drivetrain being placed at the BACK of a car, is that hugely different than what has been done before.
With the sheer ubiquity of transverse drivetrains, it is kind of a shame that there aren't more... SCRATCH THAT, AREN'T ANY mid-engined affordable new cars.
It is a bit sad that this isn't a more global car, or for this to have a middle-sister between it an the next NSX, as the MR2 replacement that Toyota won't build.
I would certainly not mind one powered by Honda, and looking like a 6/5ths scale version of this.
rofl orloaf
> tapzz
03/30/2015 at 14:25 |
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This... won't sell well in the US. Miata sales are already declining. Truth is, no one wants a tiny sports car anymore, and the market for them is a very specific niche.
Then again, they make so much money selling Civics and Accords that they might be able to afford losing money on S660's.
Eh, we'll see...
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tapzz
> BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
03/30/2015 at 14:51 |
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I guess a lot of engineering has crept into the design of modern floorpans etc. The only other example I know of a transverse FWD drivetrain being flipping around 180 degrees to make a mid engined roadster is MGF / TF of the '90s.
I guess the Ariel Atom and Lotus Elise also make use of the idea, but they're not so cheap and made in small numbers by specialised companies.
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BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
> tapzz
03/30/2015 at 14:59 |
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They have also become more modular than ever, being applicable to many models on the same platform...
Cutting and pasting the front of the chassis to the back (in a figurative sense, and I know that ia a bit of an over-similification), can't be THAT hard for a company that can build 15 different models on a highly versatile platform.
The drivetrain isn't even flipped around, it is just transposed from being in front of the cabin, to behind it. Most front-wheel-drive have the transaxle output behind the engine oil sump.
Fiat X1/9, Lancia Montecarlo/Scorpion, Renault R5 Turbo, Clio Sport, Pontiac Fiero, Toyota MR2 (all three generations), Honda's own first-generation NSX, and third-party cottage builders like GTM (a mid-engined re-build of a FWD Mini), and Factory Five Racing 818 kit car... and I am sure there are some that I am forgetting, in addition to the Ariel and ALL the mid-engined lotuses ever built, not just Elise. Current Evora is a Toyota V6 mounted in the back.
Moving a front engine to the back is not exactly new tech.
Luc - The Acadian Oppo
> rofl orloaf
03/30/2015 at 15:14 |
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I think it's because the Miata is somewhat expensive for what you get. The S660 undercuts the Miata by a fairly large margin. Cheaper = more people will buy it.
In Canada a base miata is 29.5K for that much you can buy an ST3 Focus ST or a Base Subaru WRX. I know if I was spending 30K on a car it wouldn't be on a Miata. Make it 22-23K and it's a VERY different story.
Give me the S660 for 20K or less and I can guaranty that I would buy one.
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tapzz
> BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
03/30/2015 at 15:34 |
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It's certainly not new, and the cottage industry examples show that it can be done. But it's noticeable that –prior to this Honda– the newest of all the volume manufacturer's FF to Mid Rs were engineered over fifteen years ago. I think VW looked at it for a while a couple of years back and thought better of it.
I'm not enough of a chassis engineer to really know why that is, but if I'd have to guess, it seems that platforms are now so cost optimised that designing a low volume variant that goes beyond making the basic MQB box a bit wider or longer is just going to upset the accountants.
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BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
> tapzz
03/30/2015 at 15:37 |
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I think it has to do with being risk-adverse, and the unfortunately HIGH costs of re-federalization, especially in the US... they make it difficult for any niche car to rise above those costs to make a profit.
Over-regulation is a strangling force.
duurtlang
> thegregorius
03/30/2015 at 16:05 |
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I'm 32, all my friends have a bachelors degree and usually a masters, and none owns a new car. Or a car under 8 years old. Some, myself included, do drive a newish company car. Mine, a Ford Focus wagon (Titanium, diesel, manual) I got last week , is a boring shitbox. I chose to not drive it privately, to avoid paying any tax for it. My daily driver, a 15 years old Peugeot which I bought in 2012 for €3000, is more comfortable, faster, sportier, cheaper per kilometer and just plain nicer to drive than that Focus. The Focus was €27500 new, I wouldn't even pay 20% of that to own a new one. New cars are overrated.
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thegregorius
> duurtlang
03/30/2015 at 16:24 |
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Exactly. Maybe it's because we grew up in an era where many of us had access to good public transport, maybe it's because 'old' cars these days are much more reliable than 'old' cars used to be, or maybe it's because buying your first house or flat tends to be a much more heavy investment than it used to be, but either way no car company is foolish enough to solely target our demographic.
Just Joshing
> PG; the scalpel wielder
03/30/2015 at 17:57 |
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I wish I understood him but I think I get the gist!
Happy Panda
> tapzz
03/31/2015 at 04:27 |
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It needs to have Euro/NCAP crashtest for the UK right? So it would also be a possibility to make a LHD version, or can you just sell a car only tested in Japan under special rules?
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tapzz
> Happy Panda
03/31/2015 at 05:08 |
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Good question- I had to look it up. In the UK, you can register almost anything under individual vehicle approval, but that's effectively meant for one-offs imported by a private citizen. Then there's the national National Small Series Type Approval, which allows you to bring in a couple of hundred of vehicles of the same type, and they won't have to conform to particularly strict standards. Then there's the similar European Community Small Series Type Approval, which allows you to bring in up to a 1000 vehicles of the same type in the whole EU. And finally there's the full type approval.
Apart from the regulation type, and looking at the crash and emission standards of some Indian and Chinese market vehicles that were legally imported into the EU, I think Honda shouldn't have any problems importing any JDM car it wants. The S660 may or may not score particularly well on Euro NCAP, but that shouldn't deter buyers of this type of car. I think Euro NCAP is more a marketing thing than a regulation thing.
Converting the thing to LHD could be difficult, though- it's clearly designed as a JDM mainly or only car. Plonking in a bigger engine and flogging it in the UK, Ireland, Australia and NZ is easy. Swapping the steering wheel over maybe not so much...
samssun
> tapzz
03/31/2015 at 06:15 |
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Not sure what kind of math makes 63 hp adequate, much less "plenty". Maybe on a bike that weighs 1/5 as much, but this is the equivalent of an NSX or 911 having about 100 hp, or a Mustang having about 125.
SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
> tapzz
03/31/2015 at 07:23 |
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Honda, bring this to America! I NEEDZ IT!
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SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
> tapzz
03/31/2015 at 07:42 |
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It doesn't need to be flipped, it just needs to be moved back. The drivetrain mods are pretty much nonexistent for a transverse engine usually used in FWD cars. For example, the Fiero just used the front hubs from a Citation in the back so they didn't need to engineer new parts for it.
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SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
> rofl orloaf
03/31/2015 at 07:48 |
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I do! I'd put my money where my mouth is, too. If this is as good as I'm expecting, I'll be in line to buy one pretty much immediately.
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SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
> cornerslide
03/31/2015 at 07:49 |
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Crash test regulations :/
Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
> Svend
05/23/2015 at 15:50 |
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Holy crap that’s a lot of body roll.